Ford Fiesta ST
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#457951 - 17/08/12 07:32 AM Revs dropping on startup *****
cherie Offline
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I've searched and can't really find anything that has the same symptoms...

When I start the car whenever she's been sat for a few hours, she starts fine, but after a few seconds the revs start to drop to about 500 and the engine almost stalls.

Cleaned the throttle body last night, and it's not made any difference.

This morning I when it was almost stalled, I pressed the accelerator, but nothing happened... then the revs jumped up.

Last service was only 5k ago, and she's only done 25k in total.

Any ideas of what I can look at next?
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#457952 - 17/08/12 08:50 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: cherie]
sxkopite8 Offline
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Morning,

I'm having exactly the same issue. Car is in the garage today to have it checked over for that reason so I'll let you know outcome
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#457953 - 17/08/12 09:23 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: sxkopite8]
Steve_Hilsley Offline
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I had a Focus RS mark 1 & she did this often. I found if I reset the ECU (disconnect battery overnight, reconnect, start car & let it idle for 15 mins with all lights on, doors open, air con on, stereo on, all de mist windows on)then after that go for a proper drive i.e. go up & down gears & rev the car a lot. This seemed to work on the Focus so maybe worth a try???

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#457954 - 17/08/12 09:39 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Steve_Hilsley]
Jack_P Offline
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I have this same issue and feels like about 2 weeks ago is started but getting a slight bit worse every time.

Starts up and can hear the exhaust warble, rev it a little and the revs drop before they raise. This makes you look like a bit of an idiot having kangaroo'd my car out of a space at work the last 3 nights. But after about 2 min of running its fine and doesnt do the problem there on after.
Throttle body only got cleaned a couple months back but will have a look again!
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#457955 - 17/08/12 09:39 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Steve_Hilsley]
kenny Offline



Registered: 08/03/08
Posts: 11806
Loc: essex
i would also say try an ecu reset before you take it in to a garage

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#457956 - 17/08/12 10:07 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: kenny]
cherie Offline
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I might give the ECU reset a go tonight and see what she's like in the morning.
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#457957 - 17/08/12 10:47 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: cherie]
Ad89 Offline
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Same problem as me, there seems to be quite a few of us with similar issues now, there are a few of us trying to figure out what the issue is by replacing possible faulty parts without luck at the moment. I'm considering making a list of the cars, mods and things tried so we can try and nail the problem.

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#457958 - 17/08/12 10:47 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: cherie]
kenny Offline



Registered: 08/03/08
Posts: 11806
Loc: essex
make sure you give it a good run and can take up to 100 miles to sort itself out some cars can take 20 miles

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#457959 - 17/08/12 11:05 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: kenny]
ST_Jonny Offline
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Loc: Chatham, Kent
I've had the same problem, notably from when I fitted the milltek as it didnt come with the sleeve and since then its been getting worse. Had to leave it a min or so then drive off as it kangaroo'd so much.

I chucked a load of exhaust paste on it last night and its not as bad now but it's still there. Hoping that fitting the sleeve tomorrow and ecu reset will sort it out in time for trip to AMD.

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#457960 - 17/08/12 11:24 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: ST_Jonny]
sxkopite8 Offline
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as soon as i mentioned this at the garage, the first thing they said was 'that ties in with the warm weather' which would explain why a few of us are having this but its not good if whenever it gets warm the car goes all wimpy on us
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#457961 - 17/08/12 11:29 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: sxkopite8]
Ad89 Offline
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Mines better when it is warm, if it's been sitting in 23c heat all day when I'm at work, it's fine. It's the cold starts in the morning or on colder days where it's the problem for me at least.

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#457962 - 17/08/12 11:40 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Ad89]
cherie Offline
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Mine does it first thing when it's cold, and when I leave work in the afternoon when it's been sitting in the sun all day.

No mechanical mods on mine at all... so I can't blame that.
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#457963 - 17/08/12 11:45 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: cherie]
ST_Jonny Offline
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^^^^^ +1

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#457964 - 17/08/12 12:50 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: ST_Jonny]
Milky Offline
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Mine does it too from time to time.

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#457965 - 17/08/12 12:54 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Milky]
Jack_P Offline
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I cant wait until it actually gets cold... my pas pump already sounds messed and its not even anywhere near a minus figure yet!
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#457966 - 17/08/12 04:39 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Jack_P]
sxkopite8 Offline
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just got home from Mountune, got them to check this out for me as i wasnt sure if it was possibly connected to the upgrade.

My symptoms were exactly the same as those Cherie listed at the start.

Altho the guys in the garage cant say 100% what it was, theyve taken an educated guess at it.

What they believe it is is the 'front hego sensor' in the exhaust. They think that that was faulty and wasnt operating correctly with the back sensor so it wasnt idling correctly.

What theyve done is installed a new one on the car, if it works fine and the problem doesnt return then everything is sorted. if it does carry on doing it then i need to take it back and theyll put my original back on and carry on trying diagnose it.

So keep your eyes posted on here for updates from myself!

i did mention to them that other people on here were having the same problem with different setups i.e. standard, custom mod route etc so theyve asked me to let them know what everyone elses outcomes are as theyd like to know about it if it is a common problem. so maybe well see a Mountune hego sensor on the site soon

Must say, the blokes there are fantastic, absolutely first class service from them again today
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#457967 - 17/08/12 06:30 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: sxkopite8]
Ad89 Offline
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Sounds good mate, thanks for the post, let us know if it sorts it.

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#457968 - 17/08/12 08:45 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Ad89]
cherie Offline
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I've got something slightly simpler to try tomorrow: a new air filter. Although she had a service in April, it was only a minor one and it wasn't changed. Thought I'd check it, and it's filthy even if it's not the cause, it needs doing.

If it doesn't cure, I'll try the ECU reset tomorrow instead.
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#457969 - 18/08/12 08:38 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: sxkopite8]
Ad89 Offline
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Hows the car running?

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#457970 - 20/08/12 12:06 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Ad89]
Jack_P Offline
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Registered: 21/07/10
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Loc: Northants
Mines still doing this, revved it upto 2krpm tonser if it would clear, but you can feel it not getting the air:fuel right, only does it for a minute or so :/ will have tonrset the ecu tomorrow!
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#457971 - 20/08/12 06:52 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Jack_P]
Jack_P Offline
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Decided this morning to disconnect the battery and leave it so over night, at the same time ive cleaned out my k@n57i and left it to dry, i got a video from the exhaust basically showing what i hear an can see by judging the revs but will put it up later.
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#457972 - 21/08/12 09:01 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Jack_P]
Jack_P Offline
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Registered: 21/07/10
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Oiled up the k&n this morning and re-installed it. Reconnected the battery and all is well, sat here with the car at idle and now no problems at all, happily sat there at around 11krpm and dropping bit by bit until it heats up. Revved it a bit and revs went straight up instead of dropping first. Going to take it out for a quick raz now!
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#457973 - 21/08/12 10:37 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Jack_P]
Duncan_P Offline
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Quote:

sat here with the car at idle and now no problems at all, happily sat there at around 11krpm



Insane! I want 11k rpm
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#457974 - 22/08/12 04:11 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Duncan_P]
Jack_P Offline
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Registered: 21/07/10
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Loc: Northants
Quote:

Quote:

sat here with the car at idle and now no problems at all, happily sat there at around 11krpm



Insane! I want 11k rpm




I love it too, shame i was on about 1100

The problems come back also, did it this afternoon from cold :/
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#457975 - 22/08/12 04:45 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Jack_P]
dedafmonteur Offline
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Called the special Ford Hotline again.

THey told me every ST and 1.6 Liter fiesta has this problem.
it's 'normal'.
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#457976 - 22/08/12 06:26 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: dedafmonteur]
cherie Offline
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So every ST is meant to have the revs drop that low on choke that it stalls? Sorry, but that just sounds like the typical Ford bollocks for 'we don't really know and we don't really care'.
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#457977 - 22/08/12 07:10 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: cherie]
Milky Offline
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Someone on STOC has fixed this problem with a new battery. I believe Stason may be trying it too. Be great if it works, simple fix.

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#457978 - 22/08/12 08:15 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Milky]
STASON Offline


Registered: 05/01/11
Posts: 5720
Loc: UK, Essex
yep definitely feasible to cause it, over time the battery cells start to deteriorate, usually not so soon.

not sure what the science is behind it but im guessing dead battery cells generally mean the other functional ones are put under stress been used and charged at the same time.

it's like trying to get 5 people in, and 5 people out of one door at the same time.

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#457979 - 22/08/12 08:24 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: STASON]
Milky Offline
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Yeah, starting the engine is definitely going to put strain on a battery not operating at full power. If it works for you and the other couple of people trying it I shall be buying one on payday too.

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#457980 - 22/08/12 08:40 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Milky]
nosnow3 Offline


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 1930
i apprechiate what STASON's thoughts are on it, but as soon as the engine turns over the alternator produces more then enough current to support the entire car

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#457981 - 22/08/12 08:46 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: nosnow3]
STASON Offline


Registered: 05/01/11
Posts: 5720
Loc: UK, Essex
at current my alternator produces 13.7 volts to the battery, anything between 12v-16v is good, id be a little worried if it was too high.

but my car at the moment when winding down the windows i loose about 100rpm off idle and then it pops back up same with my headlights if do both at the same time the car hits 500rpm and jumps back up quite violently, this is another thing im hoping a new battery will resolve i only had a new alternator fitted last year but is certainly putting the right volts out.

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#457982 - 22/08/12 09:17 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: cherie]
dedafmonteur Offline
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Quote:

So every ST is meant to have the revs drop that low on choke that it stalls? Sorry, but that just sounds like the typical Ford bollocks for 'we don't really know and we don't really care'.




Hey, don't shoot the messenger.

Tomorrow ill see if i need to replace my baterty. We have a small mesuring decice that tell if it's ok or not.
Going tO change the sparkplugs also. I think the problem is mechanical. I got the map from Bluefin and it'a still idling bad. When the engine is warm, the idling is good. All the fiesta's do it. I'm going to find out what's wrong. Give me some time to check @ Ford.
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#457983 - 22/08/12 10:02 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: dedafmonteur]
nosnow3 Offline


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Posts: 1930
My st does this stason winding windows down etc

My mates focus did it

My old 1.4 mk6 did it (was fun as you could almost get a tune from the exhaust)

Motors will always pull a lot of current and consume power from your engine

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#457984 - 22/08/12 11:22 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: nosnow3]
Jack_P Offline
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Registered: 21/07/10
Posts: 6012
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Pretty sure they all do it by a very small amount. Make sure your battery acid is topped up!
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#457985 - 24/08/12 08:42 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Jack_P]
sxkopite8 Offline
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Registered: 24/01/12
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Loc: Chelmsford, Essex
first chance to try out this new sensor today from a complete cold start. made no difference, i tried giving the engine a chance to breathe without my foot on the throttle to give it a hand and it did then stall so its obviously not that.

back to the garage for a second diagnosis
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#457986 - 24/08/12 08:50 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: sxkopite8]
dedafmonteur Offline
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I'm allao working on it.

Tomorrow i can use the Ford garage the while day. We're closed but i can get in;).
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#457987 - 24/08/12 08:54 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: dedafmonteur]
sxkopite8 Offline
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Hope you have some luck, this is beginning to annoy me now.

Hopefully people are reading this, for everyone who's had this problem can you list out your current details so I can show them to the garage.

I'm talking car production year, current mileage, what mods (if any). May help them look for a pattern.

killeruk you've said there's a similar thread going on STOC. can u get similar details from them as well

Cheers


Edited by sxkopite8 (24/08/12 09:06 PM)
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#457988 - 24/08/12 09:26 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: sxkopite8]
dedafmonteur Offline
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I tried:

- mapping
- sparkplugs
- fuelfilter
- finding error codes (special device)
- tested cam and rock shaft sensor
- tested the innectors

No result.
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#457989 - 24/08/12 11:05 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: dedafmonteur]
nosnow3 Offline


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Posts: 1930
Whys no one changed a coil pack yet?

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#457990 - 25/08/12 09:12 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: nosnow3]
STASON Offline


Registered: 05/01/11
Posts: 5720
Loc: UK, Essex
i have and did nothing.

different battery nothing

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#457991 - 25/08/12 11:02 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: STASON]
dedafmonteur Offline
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i ordered new spark leads (racing ones). maybe it's that.

i tried a lot. I think it might be a sensor that we're overlooking.
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#457992 - 25/08/12 05:30 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: dedafmonteur]
Milky Offline
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I have the KV85s and it still happens sometimes so I doubt they'll fix it.

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#457993 - 26/08/12 09:28 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Milky]
dedafmonteur Offline
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I can give it a shot though....

Ok. I need some info for my list. I made a list of all the sensors in the fiesta so i can eliminate them one by one.

- does the car have a bad idle atba cold startup? And after like 10/20 min it's mich better?
- is it worse when it's cold/damp outside?

Please all answer!!
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#457994 - 26/08/12 10:00 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: dedafmonteur]
Jack_P Offline
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Happens for around 20-30seconds, 15 seconds after start up when its cold. If its been driven ad its sligtly warm or still upto temp it doesnt do it.
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#457995 - 27/08/12 09:24 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Jack_P]
dedafmonteur Offline
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Might have found the problem.

Going do test it out today!
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#457996 - 27/08/12 11:51 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Jack_P]
sxkopite8 Offline
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Quote:

Happens for around 20-30seconds, 15 seconds after start up when its cold. If its been driven ad its sligtly warm or still upto temp it doesnt do it.




This is exactly same as mine
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#457997 - 28/08/12 07:34 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: dedafmonteur]
cherie Offline
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Quote:

- does the car have a bad idle atba cold startup? And after like 10/20 min it's mich better?



No. It's better after only a couple of minutes, or if the engine is turned off and restarted.
Quote:

- is it worse when it's cold/damp outside?



No. It's worse when it's warmer.


This morning was the coldest it's been for a while, and I had no issues at all. Started fine, idled at the RPM you'd expect. I changed the air filter on Saturday, but that didn't appear to make a difference, unless the ECU just needed the 140 mile drive I did straight after to learn that it was getting more/cleaner air.
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#457998 - 03/09/12 09:20 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: cherie]
sxkopite8 Offline
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Hows everyone been getting on with this?

Ive just been back on to the garage to report that their sensor theory hadnt panned out so ive now booked it in for them to have it for the whole week to try and track down the problem.
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#457999 - 03/09/12 10:34 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: sxkopite8]
STASON Offline


Registered: 05/01/11
Posts: 5720
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i've been told today it's the fuel filter, seems like the only thing i haven't replace so i just brought one.

will report back

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#458000 - 03/09/12 12:00 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: STASON]
ST_Jonny Offline
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Cleaned my K&N this weekend and reset the battery and the idle is much better now. When accelerating from cold it is still a little bit jumpy but it is a slight improvement.

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#458001 - 03/09/12 02:18 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: ST_Jonny]
dedafmonteur Offline
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I am going to install a larger fuel filter. i have a friend that works for Opel. He said it could be that. Because it's the standard filter for the 1.4 and 1.6, but this engine needs much more fuel.

No idea but worth trying for 10 euro!
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#458002 - 04/09/12 11:24 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: dedafmonteur]
Ad89 Offline
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This was posted on FiestaSTOC.com by "duratec190":

Quote:

"Right guys, this was happening to my ST alot about a year or so ago!

to start off with, it is NOT lambda sensor related, on cold startup, the engine management system runs open loop, in a nutshell means because its cold and the cat hasn't started working yet, the ECU/PCM totally blocks off any information the lmabda sensors are trying to send it! it therefore goes into a default rich mixture mode untill the coolant temp sensor tells it "the engine is warm, start listening to what these sensors have to say"

THIS IS WHAT WORKED ON MY CAR: i am a ford tech so obviously going to fix it myself rather than paying my work to let me put the IDS computer on it.. when i started my car it would splutter and cough for about 5 seconds and then either stall or if i gave it a quick rev it picked up and was ok after that, i decided to take my spark plugs out for a look in the morning, some oily residue on them (around the electrode tip), first thought was cam cover seal leaking into plug holes, but all was bone dry, and the oil wouldnt really get past the seal and threads into the combustion chamber! so the oil was coming from inside the cylinder, but where? surely my piston rings or valve stem oil seals werent gone at 23,000mls? only other way oil is getting into the cylinder is of course the crankcase breather, so i removed the oil cooler/filterhousing and starter motor and took the breather pipe (from block to inlet manifold) off the inlet and bunged the inlet with a sillicone pipe + jubilee clip, also took the 1 from cam cover to air filter off and put a small filter on the cam cover, replaced the plugs anyway and took it a good hard blast to clear it out!

Never had a problem since!

This wont cost you anything to do other than if you need to buy a small sillicone bung and jubilee clip for the manifold (this is what supercharged owners need to do if there still running a standard inlet!

so i would wreckon this is worth a try, what i can imagine was happening was some oil vapour being present in the inlet and cylinders just before the engine is turned off at night (going to be warm and more vapour) and then whilst sitting overnight clinging to the cylinder walls and spark plug electrode! then when starting theres not a good spark in maybe 1 or 2 even 3 cylinders which causes the coughing, spluttering, stink of fuel, stalling, then when the engines been started again and given a little rev its done enought to clean the plug and then runs ok!

thats my theory anyway guys, some may argue it but it makes sense and it cured my problem

so basically vent both breathers to atmosphere and bung inlet.. replace plugs, job done!

Cheers"




Not sure about anyone else, but this sounds very plausible, as he said, the system runs in open loop when cold, so it can't be sensors, and when I lightly rev my car for 10 seconds from cold and let it idle again it's fine?

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#458003 - 04/09/12 03:16 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: Ad89]
dedafmonteur Offline
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So it's the oil in the inlet manifold??

Right??
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#458004 - 11/09/12 08:55 AM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: dedafmonteur]
sxkopite8 Offline
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Posts: 8193
Loc: Chelmsford, Essex
Cars back in the garage today for round two at solving this. Completely forgot to mention to them about the post above. Theyve got it all week now so plenty of chances to diagnose it from cold so fingers crossed.
_________________________
East of England Rep

Midge - MG ZR 105 (10-11)
Stella - MR200 Fiesta st (11-15)
Silky - R171 SLK280 (15 - )



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#458005 - 14/09/12 08:55 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: sxkopite8]
sxkopite8 Offline
Eat My Du

Registered: 24/01/12
Posts: 8193
Loc: Chelmsford, Essex
Got the car back today, over the week they stripped car down and tested as much as possible without finding a mechanical reason for it happening.

What theyve done to try and repair it is tweak the fuelling at startup so it is increased by 10%. The first couple times theyve started it since, it has worked. Now down to me to keep trialing it and get back to them with long term results.
_________________________
East of England Rep

Midge - MG ZR 105 (10-11)
Stella - MR200 Fiesta st (11-15)
Silky - R171 SLK280 (15 - )



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#458006 - 21/09/12 01:36 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: sxkopite8]
ST_Jonny Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 28/03/12
Posts: 366
Loc: Chatham, Kent
Took my cam cover to filter breather hose off last night before I left work and went to start it this morning and afternoon and it was absolutely fine. In fact better than it's ever been

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#458007 - 21/09/12 02:00 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: ST_Jonny]
sxkopite8 Offline
Eat My Du

Registered: 24/01/12
Posts: 8193
Loc: Chelmsford, Essex
interesting, im sure i can hear a hissing from around that area when im accelerating so i had been wondering if i had a leak there
_________________________
East of England Rep

Midge - MG ZR 105 (10-11)
Stella - MR200 Fiesta st (11-15)
Silky - R171 SLK280 (15 - )



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#458008 - 21/09/12 03:30 PM Re: Revs dropping on startup [Re: sxkopite8]
ST_Jonny Offline
Site Supporter

Registered: 28/03/12
Posts: 366
Loc: Chatham, Kent
I took it off based on the theory that the guy from fiestastoc had come up with. Was still a little bit lumpy but a lot better than the past few weeks. Going to ford tomorrow to see if dad's mate can find anything else that could be a contributing factor.

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