#145941 - 11/11/08 11:08 AM
Tuning Package..
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Right then chaps..
I am thinking about getting some bits for the ST.. looking to try to get as close to 200bhp as possible on the 2 litre with standard internals..
Bits i am looking at...
cosworth 200bhp cam kit
cosworth inlet manifold
ggr CAI kit
milltek 4-1 manifold
milltek sport cat
milltek cat back exhaust
re-map
Now for the technical bits..
1. Do the injectors have a sufficent flow rate to support this power?
2. Will the standard clutch take the increase in torque or will it start slipping?
3. Is head work required to get to 200bhp? The standard head has pretty good flow properties.
Cheers,
Rich.
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta 
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#145942 - 11/11/08 12:31 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 15/01/06
Posts: 3556
Loc: Tipton nr. Dudley, W. Mids
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I'd say:
1: Yes the injectors will cope
2: I think you may want to think about an uprated clutch.
3: The heads are fine on this engine, I think you'd spend alot of money for very little gain on the ports/valves.
Dump the Miltek bits for Piper though.
I'm not sure if the Cosworth inlet manifold actually does much for the money if you don't spend on a better throttle body set up (someone will advise)
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2011 Focus 3-door Zetec 1.6 TDCi. Previous <img src="/images/graemlins/stemo.gif" alt="" />s - 2006 Panther Black & 2007 Red. Gone and quite forgotten <img src="/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
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#145943 - 11/11/08 12:44 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: DAVE T ST]
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Registered: 17/03/08
Posts: 779
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Hi Rich, I'm far from an expert on this but, as far as the clutch is concerned, I doubt if it will slip with the amount of torque you'll have. My Fabia VRS had 170bhp, standard clutch and a LOT of torque (don't forget, TDi) and it never showed any signs of slippage after 30k of driving. As for the GGR CAIS, it's very nice indeed  Look forward to hearing about your car in the future. 
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#145944 - 11/11/08 01:57 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Pacman83]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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well Mountune do Stage 1 165bhp (thats mine) and Stage 2 185bhp so reckon they know what they are doing (Ford approved) so 200bhp should be ok. The Likes of Pumabuild/Pumaspeed offer 190bhp kits too. Jamsport do supercharger kits that start around the 200bhp so probably the guys to speak to, they can offer you 300bhp+ bonkers !
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 MR200 Stage 3 200PS Evans Halshaw Mountune Pro
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#145945 - 11/11/08 02:21 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Steve, I here what you are saying about the mountune stuff and I have spoken to a dealership that is authorised to fit the 185 kit. However the price and duration that they wanted to keep the car for was just daft.. bearing mind i would have to go to Oxford as well.. £2600+ for the kit fitted and then 1 week to keep the car.. no thanks.. I don't want to supercharge, there will be too many gearbox issues. I think a nice bit of NA power will do the trick.. 
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#145947 - 11/11/08 02:48 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 15/01/06
Posts: 3556
Loc: Tipton nr. Dudley, W. Mids
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It's the exhaust/airbox that restricts the most.
I'd sort those first before a spend on a manifold that's all I'm saying as you may find you don't need it.
I totally agree about the price of the 185 kit fitted, silly money.
If it's torque you're after then you may want to consider the 4-2-1 manifold as this has more lower and mid range torque than the 4-1 and only a bit less than the 4-1 at 5,000 RPM+.
The clutch can't take much more than 250NM (well not when you're offereing a 3yr warranty) which is why the diesel is only the 90PS in the fiesta instead of the 110PS from the focus.
The Focus has dual mass flywheel
_________________________
2011 Focus 3-door Zetec 1.6 TDCi. Previous <img src="/images/graemlins/stemo.gif" alt="" />s - 2006 Panther Black & 2007 Red. Gone and quite forgotten <img src="/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
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#145949 - 11/11/08 03:41 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: DAVE T ST]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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ok,
I will take a look at the 4-2-1.. i suspect the increase in torque is due to slightly more back pressure and different primary lengths..
Cheers,
rich.
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#145950 - 11/11/08 03:45 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: w3dal]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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i guess the better results seen on the 2.3 and supercharger conversions are due to the the additonal volume of air required for the increased displacement. This is probably where the standard inlet becomes a bit marginal..
I think the cosworth inlet could work well with some gasflowing and this will inherently lead to changes in the volumetric efficency of the head. i,e it will need more air to support the flow.
hmm. need to do some thinking.. or maybe consider throttle bodies, but that just opens up a whole new can of worms..
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#145951 - 11/11/08 03:52 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: w3dal]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Quote:
you will loose low down torque due to the cams.
i think milltek has been proven to give the best gains for a complete exhaust system, shame it sounds like a wet fart.
Dal
Could you please specifiy why you would loose torque. the cosworth cams are spec'd as 256 duration, 9.5mm lift. These are not particually agressive cams and don't run big overlap either..
The 240bhp cams are a 282 duration and i would expect to loose torque with those..
Also is the wet fart comment a personal thing. I am after a system that will offer the maximum gains and i want it to sound pretty much the same as standard.. wet fart sounds like a barrie boy car to me and defo not what i want...
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#145952 - 11/11/08 04:11 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 1123
Loc: Berkshire
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Quote:
Quote:
you will loose low down torque due to the cams.
i think milltek has been proven to give the best gains for a complete exhaust system, shame it sounds like a wet fart.
Dal
Could you please specifiy why you would loose torque. the cosworth cams are spec'd as 256 duration, 9.5mm lift. These are not particually agressive cams and don't run big overlap either..
The 240bhp cams are a 282 duration and i would expect to loose torque with those..
Also is the wet fart comment a personal thing. I am after a system that will offer the maximum gains and i want it to sound pretty much the same as standard.. wet fart sounds like a barrie boy car to me and defo not what i want...
No Dal is right. The Miltek does sound like a wet fart.
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#145953 - 11/11/08 04:25 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: stuart84]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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So it sounds barrie boy then.. 
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Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
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#145957 - 11/11/08 04:57 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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Quote:
Steve,
I here what you are saying about the mountune stuff and I have spoken to a dealership that is authorised to fit the 185 kit. However the price and duration that they wanted to keep the car for was just daft.. bearing mind i would have to go to Oxford as well..
£2600+ for the kit fitted and then 1 week to keep the car.. no thanks..
I don't want to supercharge, there will be too many gearbox issues.
I think a nice bit of NA power will do the trick..
Yep, I agree with what you say, for me it was an easy choice as I don't know stuff and can't do anything myself and want to keep my warranty, hence one stop shop route for me.
However there is no way they should have your car for a week, the job is 4 hours for 165 and I would imagine a day for the 185 cams kit.
As you are intersted in exhaust sound, the Mountune is a piper 4:1 manifold and a CLF exhaust (CLF went bust, not sure if anyone else has taken over), anyway I can say that the piper manifold is very quiet off throttle and on throttle it awakes with a rorty sporty sound, not loud or boy racy, just really pleasant.
Looking forward to hear your plans as they progress.
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MR200 Stage 3 200PS Evans Halshaw Mountune Pro
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#145958 - 11/11/08 05:02 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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think Dal meant you would loose Torque with the Mountune 185 cams.
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MR200 Stage 3 200PS Evans Halshaw Mountune Pro
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#145959 - 11/11/08 05:03 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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somebody makes a turbo for the ST - how about that route ? Although I know you want NA.
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#145960 - 11/11/08 05:03 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: w3dal]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Heat soak on the inlet side is allways going to rob you of power.
There are some very natty silicone inlet manifold gaskets that reduce heat transfer from the head into the inlet avaliable fromt he US.. these may well help the cause.. it is often the little things u do whilst tuning that have the most benefit..
My exhaust manifold will be ceramic coated to reduce under bonnet temps. It also has the benefit of keeping the heat in the exhaust gas and thus keeping the gas speed up, enhancing the scavanging effect of the exhaust pulse..
Cheers,
Rich.
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#145961 - 11/11/08 05:11 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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performance ford this month tested ceramic and heat wrap on manifolds
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MR200 Stage 3 200PS Evans Halshaw Mountune Pro
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#145962 - 11/11/08 06:28 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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And there conclusions were?? 
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#145964 - 11/11/08 08:04 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Micky]
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Site Supporter
Registered: 15/07/08
Posts: 128
Loc: Athens
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Mate if you want my opinion dont do any of this.Just pick up the supercharger kit and the intlet and you ve done!!
I am now with cams,full miltek,DS and kn 57...around 186 hp
_________________________
2.3 engine,Supercharger,Intercooler,Cosworth inlet,Quaife diff,Dreamscience,Full Milltek,KW Variant 1,AP Racing brakes 330mm. 
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#145965 - 12/11/08 11:03 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Geo_F1]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Alonso, I here what you are saying. But i am not going to go the supercharger root. I don't want it.. I am gonna go down the NA root. Minister power are getting 260bhp out there 2.0l NA engines, 280bhp out of the 2.3 engines. I believe this is possible in fiesta, with the right compression ratio, head work, cam spec's, induction and ECU..
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#145968 - 12/11/08 02:05 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Maniac
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 6067
Loc: Shoreham-by-Sea, W. Sussex, UK
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Jam Sport still might be your best bet as they had throttle bodies running on a bored out 2.3 (to 2.5) NA engine... ok its supercharged now (as seen in the latest Performance Ford) but yeh.. they've done the 2L & 2.3L engines.
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24/03/05 to 27/06/12 & I loved it
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#145969 - 24/11/08 01:45 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: PinkRinse]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Right then guys, quick update for you all. I have sourced the milltek 4-1 manifold and this is now with http://www.zircotec.com for ceramic coating.. I have also spoken to rick wood and have been told not to bother with the cosworth inlet or the cosworth 200bhp cams, so i will be retaining the OEM inlet but with the GGR CAI.. The cosworth inlet will lose me torque on a 2 litre as the ports are too big which i don't want and ric has a set of custom cams which offer increased torque and bhp by using increaed lift but a small overlap.. these combined with the cnc head should give some good gains. see http://www.cncheads.co.uk for the head info.. I am going to source a 4-2-1 milltek manifold as well and do some back to back comparisons with custom maps to see if i can make some extra torque with the 4-2-1. I will post picks of the manifold when i get it back from ceramic coating.. I will also post a dyno run in standard trim when i get one done, this will give me the base line to work from.. Cheers, rich.
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#145970 - 24/11/08 01:52 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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nice. Are these cams for low down power or higher up, what rev area ?
I ask in that I often consider the thinking behind Mountunes Stage 1 & 2. The Stage 2 hasn't really attracted much interest with the cams putting the bhp at the top and the torque too low down. Why didn't they just do one kit in the middle, probably marketing/insurance-maybe stage 2 was Track aimed.
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#145971 - 24/11/08 01:57 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Steve,
I need to have another conversation with ric, but my understanding is that they will make power through out the rev range not just at the top end.
i am booked in on thursday 4th for the first dyno run, so we will see what the car is putting out in standard trim..
Cheers,
Rich.
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#145972 - 27/11/08 12:29 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Quick Update.
Zircotec will have completed ceramic coating my manifold tommorow. So hopefully will be deliverd back to me on monday.
Just been on the phone to graham goode racing regarding the CAI kit. They are going to do a couple of custom tweaks for me. The spun aluminium heat shield will be anodised black for me.
Now there is method in my madness.. everyone thinks that black is a rubbish colour for heat managment. This is not quite right. Black is the best colour for raidiating heat out from a material quickly.
Ali is a rubbish material becuase it retains heat really badly. hopefully the black anodising will reduce heat soak from the engine bay. It will also look nice and OEM when fitted with the black samco hose i have spec'd.. :-D
Exhaust has been spec'd and priced with tony from pumaspeed. Really nice chap and will be ordered on Monday from them.
Then we move onto the dyno once it is all fitted for a back to back comparison..
Then it will be a custom re-map with cam's to what additonal power this gives me. then the rickwood head goes on plus another re-map.. the idea being to see what each upgrade will give, what you gain and what you lose where..
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#145973 - 27/11/08 01:26 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 26/09/06
Posts: 1287
Loc: Cambs
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A little knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing.
A black anodised heat shield will perform worse than a shinny aluminium one. Yes, black objects do radiate energy more, but unless you're heat sheild gets up to real temperatures (600°C +, by which point it will have melted), radiative loss is going to be negligable compared to your convective loss.
The same argument could be said for radiative gain - the engine bay isn't really that hot so heat transfer by radiation will be minimal.
More importantly it will look better anodised black ;o)
On balance, you can anodise it whatever colour you want and it will make chuff all difference, but if you're going to get picky, there will be more heat gained by making it black that heat lost as the engine is hotter.
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Eco-warrior
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#145974 - 27/11/08 01:36 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: steve1981]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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gonna be interesting to hear the test results for each mod, good for anyone to see for future projects.
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MR200 Stage 3 200PS Evans Halshaw Mountune Pro
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#145975 - 27/11/08 01:51 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: steve1981]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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i didn't realise that ali melted at 600 deg c.. ;-)
As cold air is drawn through the the inlet heat shield to the filter then the temp drop should be quicker with black than with silver..
we will see.. ;-)
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#145976 - 27/11/08 02:02 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 26/09/06
Posts: 1287
Loc: Cambs
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LOL - pure ally melts at 660°C but as soon as you atart to alloy it you'll see a reduction in melting point. Would need to know what alloy you've got to get the right phase diagram ;o)
Regarding the cold air moving inside the shield...... the whole point is you're trying to avoid that taking the heat back into the engine. You'd be better off with a polymer heat shield covered in tin foil; the foil would reflect and radiative heat and the polymer would slow conduction through to your "cool air chamber"
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Eco-warrior
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#145977 - 27/11/08 02:10 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: steve1981]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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hmmm. i hear what you are saying regarding the reflective properties.
I am concerned with airflow to the heatshield in question to achive forced convection on the exterior. As the induction system will be situation where it will be in the flow of air. Then surely black will help..
As convectionis defined as:
Heat transfer in a gas or liquid by the circulation of currents from one region to another.
happy to discuss. :-)
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#145978 - 27/11/08 03:48 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 180
Loc: Co. Durham
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He said conduction... as in heat transferred between to attached bodies...  A black object will loose heat by radiation quicker then a silver (reflective body) but it will also heat up faster as it will "soak" up the radiation. As it's not a perfect black body it will retain more heat then it looses through radiation so I'd go with silver if you want to reduce heat gain. So tin foil and an insulator like a ceramic would be ideal (apart from the weight and possible fragility of the object)... other wise I'd say black looks cool but steve1981 is right
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#145979 - 27/11/08 04:22 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: STonefly]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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so is my black mountune plastic one any good ?
Rich did you view the pics I posted on the other topic that you requested from me ?
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MR200 Stage 3 200PS Evans Halshaw Mountune Pro
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#145981 - 02/12/08 10:18 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: JJST]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 26/09/06
Posts: 1287
Loc: Cambs
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Honestly the colour is not important as we're not talking serious radiative loss/gain here. The heat shield works as a thermal barrier for conductive transfer (heat moving through a material due to potential difference).
Convection can be ignored unless you force cool the outside of the heatshield which isn't a bad idea actually (run a flexi tube up from the lower front grill maybe)
The best material would be plastic and as said, covering the outside in tinfoil certainly wouldn't hurt, but I don't think you see any tangible gain.
If you wanted to go super OTT then I'd say make a sandwhich structure out of a porous honeycomb and force feed air through the sandwhich - this way you reduce your conductive transfer though use of polymer and paper materials and reduce the bulk of material to act as a thermal mass and you can actively cool the bulk using forced convective losses...... hurrah!
Oh - Peltiers might be an option as an electronic intercooler too?
If you
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Eco-warrior
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#145982 - 03/12/08 08:48 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: steve1981]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Steve, Thanks for your input.. You have some good ideas.. I might look into some of them.. Update,, Manifold is back. Pics attached..    tbh.. compared to the Jap stuff i am used to the welding quality is crap, but if it does the job then I will be happy. If not i will be off to primary designs for a proper custom built job, not a cosworth copy.. Enjoy. Rich.
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#145983 - 03/12/08 01:19 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Just confirmed with jamsport that the car will be booked in 15th dec. they are gonna fit all my parts and do a custom dreamscience map.
Once this is done i will run it on the dyno dynamics rolling road again and get back to back results.
Then it is the ric wood head and cams. Again a back to back will be done to see what real gains are there to be made..
cheers,
rich.
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#145984 - 03/12/08 01:25 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 26/09/06
Posts: 1287
Loc: Cambs
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Just be cautious with looking at "gains per mod" it goes without saying (but I'm saying it anyway) that certian mods only make a difference when other restrictions are also removed.
ie the exhaust works best in conjunction with free'd up flexi and induction kit.
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#145985 - 03/12/08 01:43 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: steve1981]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Steve, I understand exactly what you are saying.. that is why a gas flowed head and cams will be added after the exhaust/induction mods as these mods will support the additional 'flow' that the head will give. The head and cams will then support throttle bodies should i use them.. but yeah i get the point..
Edited by evo6rss (03/12/08 01:44 PM)
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#145986 - 03/12/08 01:46 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 26/09/06
Posts: 1287
Loc: Cambs
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You clearly know the game and are prepared to put the time and effort it.... I for one will be watching this space to see the results and how it compares to the likes of moontune (I love this new name) and other bolt on packages.
Best of luck and keep posting progress
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#145987 - 03/12/08 02:59 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: steve1981]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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yeah.. my mantra is: tuning is a balance of what is achievable and what is usable..
i.e having a 300bhp race engine that only makes power between 6000rpm and 7500rpm is pointless on the road. it will be unusable.
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#145988 - 03/12/08 03:36 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 26/09/06
Posts: 1287
Loc: Cambs
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Hurrah - another person who understands its not just about max power!
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#145989 - 03/12/08 09:54 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: steve1981]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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Moontune is usable me understands too.
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#145990 - 04/12/08 08:02 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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Fiesta Addict
Registered: 19/11/08
Posts: 987
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steve, how much is stage 1 mountune and how much is it fitted?
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#145991 - 04/12/08 11:29 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Personally I think the 185 mountune kit does reduce the drivability becuase you lose low down torque.
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#145992 - 04/12/08 03:48 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 26/09/06
Posts: 1287
Loc: Cambs
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Me too - I'm sure on a track the car would be great but I'd rather have low down torque too.
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#145993 - 04/12/08 04:33 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 180
Loc: Co. Durham
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But in the current weather less low down torque is a good thing as it'll mean less wheel spinning in low grip conditions...
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#145994 - 04/12/08 04:44 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: steve1981]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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I have seen a nice rr graph on the dreamscience website for the puma build 190bhp kit. tbh it is the best looking graph i have seen and they have clearly done some work on the mapping side but there is still a nasty hole from 2400 to 3000rpm which i suspect is a mapping issue..  The only thing that determines how fast a car will be is the area under the graph. From this dyno plot we can see that there have been gains in both areas for bhp but most importantly torque.. :-) This is what i am aiming for.. just more of.. lol..
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#145996 - 04/12/08 06:28 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: azz0703]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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Quote:
steve, how much is stage 1 mountune and how much is it fitted?
depends on what area of UK you are and your garage too, but anything from £1500-£1800.
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#145997 - 04/12/08 06:30 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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seems to be drop of a mountain side with the torqe too !
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#145998 - 04/12/08 07:29 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 26/09/06
Posts: 1287
Loc: Cambs
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Lb/ft --> Nm = x ~1.36 if my maths is up to anything
Not sure I agree with the area under the curve comment; this would not take into accont 'peaky' power delivery
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#145999 - 04/12/08 08:34 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: steve1981]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Steve,
The term 'area under the curve' is specifically used to look at the torque measurement on an engine to compare 2 cars that are both geared to use their respective rpm ranges, the one that makes more torque, makes a lot more power, and thus, all else equal, will be much much quicker.
f you have two hypothetical cars, and one makes an average of 200 ft-lb of torque from 2000 rpm to 4000 rpm and other makes 200 ft-lb of torque from 4000 rpm to 6000 rpm then clearly the second car will be quicker as it has a greater 'area under the curve'.
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#146000 - 04/12/08 10:05 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Steve,
The drop off is due to the run being shut down..
They just shut the second run down earlier..
I just want to clarify that my statement 'best graph' was referring to a comparison between the standard power run and the modified one.
Pink Rinse sent me his power graph to have a look at and this is a much smoother curve and shows that his mapping is most probably better.. I don;t know what mods he has mind..
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#146001 - 04/12/08 10:28 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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there is a big drop in torque where you say there is a hole 2400-3100
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#146002 - 04/12/08 10:47 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Maniac
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 6067
Loc: Shoreham-by-Sea, W. Sussex, UK
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Her Standard Ford map. Full custom made exhaust & K&N57i
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#146003 - 05/12/08 09:20 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: PinkRinse]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Sorry..  Here is the graph for people to have a look at..  Rich.
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#146004 - 05/12/08 09:45 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 26/09/06
Posts: 1287
Loc: Cambs
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Quote:
Steve,
The term 'area under the curve' is specifically used to look at the torque measurement on an engine to compare 2 cars that are both geared to use their respective rpm ranges, the one that makes more torque, makes a lot more power, and thus, all else equal, will be much much quicker.
I see what you're saying, I'm just trying to look at it from a mathamatical point of view and I'm buggered if I can work out what the intergral of torque is? 
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#146005 - 05/12/08 10:25 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: steve1981]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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You know whar steve u are right and I am sort of right.. here is the clarification as to question around 'peaky' engines.. It is the horsepower curve is typically what matters, and your 'wheel' torque is generated by your gearing. I completely forgot about that.. The reason being that gearing is a torque multiplier.. My statement that the car with more torque will be quicker, given the same gearing is still correct, it is just that it is a product of HP..
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#146007 - 05/12/08 01:22 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: steve1981]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 15/01/06
Posts: 3556
Loc: Tipton nr. Dudley, W. Mids
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Exactly, that's why I prefer my TDCi to my ST. Even though I'm nowhere near as quick from say 0-60 the ammount of torque makes it fly from say 30-50 in 4th gear. Who spends all day at 6,000 rpm anyway. Top end power is fine for the race track but no good when you're trying to merge onto the M6 at 45MPH and need to get to 70MPH quickly 
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#146008 - 05/12/08 01:32 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: DAVE T ST]
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Fiesta Addict
Registered: 19/11/08
Posts: 987
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you lost me quite a fair bit back, but i agree torque first then bhp, but you need a balance of both, a bit like yin and yang lol, in order to acheive optimal results,
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#146009 - 05/12/08 02:39 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: azz0703]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 26/09/06
Posts: 1287
Loc: Cambs
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Thing is you can argue the pros and cons all day long but in my humble opinion torque is the way forward for an every day useable engine. It why my next car will be an oil burner and my next bike will be a V-twin.
Oil burners have improved so much over the past few years - they're no longer lazy noisy tractors and are even catching up petrol engines in terms of peak power output now too...... but with easier delivery
Sure, nothing touches a petrol engine spinning at high speed for top end performance but my ST very rarely gets above 4000rpm on a standard run to I've got none of the benefits of a petrol engine with all of the drawbacks....
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#146011 - 05/12/08 04:18 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Adam08]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 180
Loc: Co. Durham
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but in such a race the extra range and less fill ups would have minutes advantage, this does not equate to performance tbh
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#146012 - 05/12/08 06:09 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: STonefly]
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Site Supporter
Registered: 15/10/08
Posts: 15118
Loc: Harpenden, Hertfordshire
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But the peugeot which took the fastest lap was a diesel
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#146013 - 06/12/08 12:51 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Adam08]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 26/09/06
Posts: 1287
Loc: Cambs
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look back at my orriginal post - diesel engines are now starting to allow higher rpm so you're getting the benefit of increased torque (diesel has more energy in it) with the power gains coming from higher rpm.
it used to be that deisel engines were produced from heavy, but stong materials to cope with the increased compression, but we're starting to see ligher weight materials come in that allow significant weight saving so they can be pushed further.
All fuels have their place but my next car will be a diesel
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#146014 - 09/12/08 03:41 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: steve1981]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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ok.. the exhaust and sports cat have arrived.. Just waiting on the induction from GGR.. Roll on the 15th for fitting at jamsport..
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#146015 - 09/12/08 03:53 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 26/09/06
Posts: 1287
Loc: Cambs
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Awesome - have you run your standard tune on the dyno yet to see what your baseline is?
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#146016 - 09/12/08 04:54 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: steve1981]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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gonna get it done this week.. mega busy at work at the mo.. 
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#146017 - 11/12/08 03:12 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Update. GGR have finished the CAI.. I need to get the car on the dyno before monday, but at the momment i have a sickly wife and a truck load on at work. I want to go to dyno dynamics rolling road and weston perfomace is the nearest to me, but i duno if i am gonna be able to get in there..
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#146018 - 12/12/08 11:30 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Update.. Got the CAI this morning.. Big thanks to GGR for turning it around so quick and deliveringit when they promised..  Also booked ont he dyno at 09:30 tommorow morning.. so I will defo have graph's up tommorow afternoon..
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#146019 - 12/12/08 05:09 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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and pics
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#146020 - 12/12/08 11:16 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Steve, Some pics for you... GGR Induction..   Cheers, Rich.
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#146021 - 13/12/08 01:46 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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very nice, looks to be fully enclosed, so can you add a cold air feed or does it use the existing one in the front slam panel.
Edited by stevethewhizz (13/12/08 03:05 PM)
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#146022 - 13/12/08 04:59 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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It uses the standard position like the moontune one.. So should work pretty well..
Been to the dyno and the car ran 156bhp at 5600rpm and 155ft/lbs from 4200rpm to 5000rpm.
The standard map is however so rich it is untrue. I need someone to post a standard car with the afr graph for a comparison.
Cheers,
Rich.
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#146023 - 13/12/08 05:19 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Here are the dyno graphs for the baseline. These were run on dyno dnamics rolling road. They are considered to be 100% accurate full stop. These are the same rollers the car will be run on post mods.. The first graph is flywheel hp and torque. The second wheel hp and afr.   Cheers, Rich.
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#146024 - 13/12/08 10:14 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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Quote:
It uses the standard position like the moontune one.. So should work pretty well.Rich.
just for info: mountune uses seperate cold air feed too, I can't quite see inside my filter housing but it looks like the cold air feed is actually hosed straight onto the inlet or onto something between inlet and filter. It isn't just blowing cold air onto the element fins.
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#146025 - 13/12/08 10:15 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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remind us all where your at, so is that 156bhp totay standard or with the filter, good start anyway.
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#146026 - 14/12/08 09:42 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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156bhp Standard..
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#146027 - 15/12/08 09:50 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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heh up.. Back from jamsport. had exhaust, manifold and induction fitted. With a dreamscience map and it made 173bhp on jam-sports rollers.. I will take it to the dyno dynamics rollers and see what i get. So a comparison can be made.. What have i learnt.. Ford ecu is f**king rubbish and so is Dream Science. I was looking at the software with Jamie and there are a mind boggling array of adjustments in there. The ECU works almost like a maths engine, in terms that it is looking to get to a final calculation. which is st150 can only make 150bhp. It pulls out throttle position, fueling, ignition.. All of these need to be disabled to get it work properly. The problem being that the people who wrote the software are not quite sure what some of the bits do.. Long and short of it, is that to get any decent control over the engine parameters you need standalone management, which means binning the ford instrument cluster and the engine loom. Considering a DS3000 box costs £400 and the software is £500, you are well on the way to a motec M48 for that money..  Cheers, Rich.
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#146028 - 15/12/08 10:21 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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uumm, so are you happy with results but not with ford ECU/DS.
Your halfway between the mountune kits without cams, you have 10bhp more than me, yes you had DS but I had ECU updates, so I think thats a result.
More importantly how useable is that 173bhp.
What do jamsport suggest as they are knocking 300+bhp out of these cars ?
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MR200 Stage 3 200PS Evans Halshaw Mountune Pro
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#146029 - 16/12/08 07:09 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 15/01/06
Posts: 3556
Loc: Tipton nr. Dudley, W. Mids
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Wooohoo  , someone else knows that the black oak is pants. The back off that it does is not necessarily to acheive 150PS it's to acheive Euro IV on a ignition and exhaust set up that is for Euro III. Are you unable to live re-map the ECU like you can Diesels?
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#146030 - 16/12/08 09:34 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: DAVE T ST]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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You can't live map. you can't even see what load site you are at. Dream Science is in my opinion not upto scratch and also the ford ECU can't be used to get any realistic results.
Basically you need another ecu, engine loom and dash.
rich.
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#146033 - 16/12/08 11:25 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: w3dal]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 26/09/06
Posts: 1287
Loc: Cambs
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Typically ford's standard maps are quite rich so by leaning this out you should end up with more power and reduced consumption (improved economy). In reality, the fact that you have a more lively car typically means you tend to boot it around abit more wiping out any gains......
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#146035 - 16/12/08 01:05 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: b3n]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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hmm. I wonder if moontune would do me a map.. Seems like they have the right kit..
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#146037 - 16/12/08 01:39 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: b3n]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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Quote:
Thanks steve1981.
Stevethewhizz, have you had improvements on fuel economy because of your mountune?
yes. As the car has more torque of which is very useable low down then MPG has improved slightly. My drive to work is only 6 miles and I can't get above 33mpg in this type of stop/start journey, other MT-ers with longer drives will confirm better improvements than I can regular see.
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MR200 Stage 3 200PS Evans Halshaw Mountune Pro
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#146038 - 16/12/08 01:42 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: w3dal]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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Quote:
mountune on the other have these and my map has had 300 changes over the standard map. Dal
good point Dal, I knew there were a lot of I beleive small changes.
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MR200 Stage 3 200PS Evans Halshaw Mountune Pro
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#146039 - 16/12/08 01:48 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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Quote:
hmm. I wonder if moontune would do me a map.. Seems like they have the right kit..
I don't know or would they be allowed to as I assume having full access to the Ford ECU would perhaps be limited to the Kits.
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MR200 Stage 3 200PS Evans Halshaw Mountune Pro
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#146040 - 16/12/08 01:53 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: w3dal]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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In terms of how i am finding it..
It is a lot smoother in terms of the power delivery and wants to rev harder, which is a good thing..
It is quicker through a series of corners that i drive every day by nearly 10mph, to the point where i start to break. So in real terms it is quicker on the road flat out.
The best bit is the increase in torque across the range means you don't need to spank it soo hard. i.e where you would normally drop a cog u don't need to.
Over all 100% happy with the mods i have added. It is just that the ECU strangles the car. bog standard these motors should be putting out 185bhp as i have said before.
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#146041 - 16/12/08 05:01 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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onwards then to next mod, good so far.
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#146042 - 16/12/08 09:36 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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yeah.. I think cams next, and see what gains they give.. See if it beats the moontune 185bhp figure..
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#146043 - 16/12/08 09:45 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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I suspect so.
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#146045 - 17/12/08 09:52 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 15/01/06
Posts: 3556
Loc: Tipton nr. Dudley, W. Mids
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Quote:
hmm. I wonder if moontune would do me a map.. Seems like they have the right kit..
I would imagine you could have the 185 map as you are having cams.
There's nothing that says you can't buy all the parts individually.
I wouldn't see a problem in having your own cams, manifold, exhaust etc and just having the Mountune Cat and ECU.
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#146046 - 17/12/08 09:59 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: DAVE T ST]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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I had a chat with mountune and they may map individual cars. This will be a map for your car and will invalidate any warrenty with ford becuase it is outside of the agreements with ford.
I am waiting for them to come back to me.
Mountune have access to all of the paramaters in the ECU, not just some of them like dreamscience. They have mapped a few fiesta st's that run in the 24hr at the nurburgring, so they should know what they are doing.
I agree with the comments about peak figures, cam selection will be critical to getting a decent torque spread.
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#146047 - 17/12/08 10:03 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 15/01/06
Posts: 3556
Loc: Tipton nr. Dudley, W. Mids
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Result I should imagine being Mountune that it won't be cheap, but it may be worth it. Obviously you'll need to fit all the mods you are planning first to get the full benefit, maybe even map it running on Super Unleaded to get the best result??? ( I don't mean to teach you to suck eggs by the way )
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#146048 - 17/12/08 10:35 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Registered: 16/05/07
Posts: 1319
Loc: Essex
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Quote:
I had a chat with mountune and they may map individual cars. This will be a map for your car and will invalidate any warrenty with ford becuase it is outside of the agreements with ford.
I am waiting for them to come back to me.
Mountune have access to all of the paramaters in the ECU, not just some of them like dreamscience. They have mapped a few fiesta st's that run in the 24hr at the nurburgring, so they should know what they are doing.
I agree with the comments about peak figures, cam selection will be critical to getting a decent torque spread.
if you have a look on youtube your see the ST's they used for testing round the ring.
they spent a massive amount of time testing various exhaust types, manifolds, cams etc and what you see in the kits was the best of the bunch.
Was it Mr Jones you spoke to Evo?
Dal
Edited by w3dal (17/12/08 10:37 AM)
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#146049 - 17/12/08 10:49 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: w3dal]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Yeah, Spoke to dave jones.. he seems like a decent chap.. tbh, i was taken out in one of Jamsports supercharged ST's when i was up there.. It was quick, proper quick.. It was a 2.3 with steel rods, high comp pistons, cams, cossie inlet and a big charger. Was running about 320bhp and 250ft/lbs.. It has had me thinking, for the money you can't beat the power or delivery. If i went that route then it is all done and sorted. I don't fancy going internal. So that would probably limit me to 250bhp to be on the safe side. but that should be plenty..
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#146050 - 17/12/08 10:59 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Registered: 16/05/07
Posts: 1319
Loc: Essex
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i have also had the privilege of going out in one of there supercharged ST's and was the 2.0 converstion with cossie inlet and a few others bits and bobs hitting 301bhp on the rollers.
it was an animal and the power delivery is there whenever you need it, very impressed with the progress that has been made on these cars/engines in the last 12 months or so.
keep and eye out for petes jamsport 2.5 supercharger on throttle bodies. It was at a track day i attended last year at Snet and the noise was just unreal and was so quick.
Dal
Edited by w3dal (17/12/08 11:01 AM)
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#146051 - 17/12/08 11:09 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 26/09/06
Posts: 1287
Loc: Cambs
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LOL - well its good to see you are enjoying the mods which is the most important thing.
Mountune should be happy to custom map your car - they are a known engine tuner taking on custom work for racing, and I suspect that there are plenty of duratecs being used!
I thought jamsport were offering custom remaps? Are you running a standard programmed jobbie?
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Eco-warrior
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#146052 - 17/12/08 11:43 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: steve1981]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Jamsport loaded a map onto my car. To get around the CEL issues. They made some tweeks to the fueling.
tbh Jamie is not a big fan of the dreamscience stuff and he agree's it limits the power that can be made NA.
I spoke with Pete about his 2.5. Nice car. keeps lunching gearbox's though. It is having an MTX75 gearbox conversion for reliability.
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#146053 - 17/12/08 05:36 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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I want a SC on top of my MT conversion - that would be nice.
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#146056 - 18/12/08 08:42 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: PinkRinse]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 26/09/06
Posts: 1287
Loc: Cambs
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Still - a mountune map would probably be worth it and you could probably get a dreamscience to store the orriginal map to be uploaded should anything go wrong (I'm guessing ford would never know?!)
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#146060 - 25/06/09 01:32 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Unclebadger]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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heh guys,
have not posted for a while..
Car is running well. Booked into jam-sport for suspension and braking mods on the 14/08/09..
Having the bilstien suspension kit, HR front anti-roll bar, poly bushes, AP's and Quaife diff.
Then I am defo going for the supercharger conversion in September.. :-) ST2 conversion with 200bhp cams and cosworth inlet. Should make about 280bhp..
As for the NA tuning route, competely changed my mind as this is gonna be way too expensive..
Nice to be back.. :-) Rich.
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#146061 - 25/06/09 06:27 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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where have you been ?
good to have you back, remind us what your running now/bhp ?
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#146062 - 26/06/09 12:11 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Work has been mental for the last few months Steve..
Car is running about 180bhp at the mo.. and is running really well with no issues.
Gonna sort out the brakes and suspension before goign for the supercharger.
Gonna run it on the standard 2 litre. If it goes bang then will go for an all steel 2.3 cosworth lump..
laters..
Rich.
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#146063 - 14/08/09 10:53 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Car went into Jam-Sport today. Picking it back up on Monday.
Having:
AP racing 4 pots fitted
Quaife LSD
Polybushes
Bilstein Suspension kit
Ultralight flywheel
Paddle clutch
Vibratechnics torque mount (try to reduce some of engine rocking).
Should be all good. I will post come pics up when i get the car back on Monday.
Cheers,
Rich.
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#146065 - 14/08/09 03:15 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 8157
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#146066 - 17/08/09 10:54 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Kaxe]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Kaxe,
Now that DRM motorsport have there throttle body kit out i am thinking that the NA route might be back on again.. ;-)
What put me off last time was having to ditch the OEM cluster, new ecu, new pedal box etc..
With the DRM kit, you retain the fly by wire throttle.
With a ric wood head and some custom cams, then the ST could be a real flyer on the NA route.
The big issue with the duratec lump is the fact that the cams and crank are not keyed.. this means that in our engines, if you rev past 7300 rpm, there is a real chance that the crank pulley or the cam sprokets might come loose/off..
With these components key'd plus some rods and pistons, then 9000 rpm is a real possability, this is where the throttle bodies really start to make some power..
So it's options, options again.. LOL
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#146067 - 17/08/09 11:06 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 8157
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#146070 - 17/08/09 12:04 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: w3dal]
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Registered: 02/03/09
Posts: 378
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#146071 - 17/08/09 08:07 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: abc]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Well. It's all fitted and back from Jam-Sport..
All i can say is wow.. The ST is now the car it should be and not a jot more power has been added...
Seriously, the Quaife LSD is the best mod on the car, combined with the suspension and brake upgrades, you can really attack a stretch road now..
The amount of grip in offer is staggering considering the car is still on the Pirelli Zero Nero's.
The Bilstein suspension kit gives a firm but supple ride, and controls roll very well.
AP's give monster stopping power..
There really isn't a bad thing that i can say about this setup.. It turns the ST from the sloppy roller skate it is out of the factory into the proper little rally car we know it really wants to be..
Really Happy..
Rich.
Edited by evo6rss (17/08/09 08:08 PM)
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#146072 - 17/08/09 08:12 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Site Supporter
Registered: 15/10/08
Posts: 15118
Loc: Harpenden, Hertfordshire
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Glad to hear you pleased with the outcome
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#146073 - 18/08/09 07:21 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Adam08]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Adam,
I can't recomend the set up enough... Anyone who is thinking of spending money on exhausts cams etc first, just spend the money on a diff and suspension first. It will absolutley transform the car and it will be soo much more fun to drive..
Anyone in the midlands who wants to see the difference I am happy to take them out for a spin..
Rich.
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**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#146075 - 18/08/09 09:04 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Kaxe]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Seriously get the diff first. Last night, on corners where I would be feathering the throttle at hi rpm to stop the wheels spinning were just taken flat out 10-15mph quicker.. it is mega..
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#146076 - 18/08/09 09:10 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Registered: 02/03/09
Posts: 378
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how much are you looking to get the diff and get it fitted?
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#146080 - 18/08/09 10:23 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Alex_H]
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Registered: 02/03/09
Posts: 378
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see when this is done, does anything have to be modified for it to fit, or does the old one come out and new diff go in? im just wondering whether its something to aim for, as i would fit it myself then if it was just a gearbox out and stripdown. i wouldnt be paying a fortune for some garage to do it. i prefer doing everything myself as i then know how its done and am confident in my work, lol. dont trust garages to be honest!
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#146081 - 18/08/09 10:32 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: abc]
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Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 8157
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Quote:
dont trust garages to be honest!
Yeah some garages I have heard of 'pretend to do work' but don't actually touch much on your car, just grease some things up until it breaks again and then charge you a shed load!  
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#146084 - 18/08/09 12:15 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Kaxe]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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I had all my stuff fitted and the labour was about £500. Speak to Jamsport, I am sure they will sort out a good price.
_________________________
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Cosworth Cams
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#146085 - 18/08/09 05:52 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Maniac
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 6067
Loc: Shoreham-by-Sea, W. Sussex, UK
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Its a straight swap nothing has to be altered or modified. I had new bearings put in when mine was done and was £375 cash *nudge nudge*
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#146086 - 26/08/09 09:08 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: PinkRinse]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Guys,
Just a quick update.. My car has had to go back to jamsport to have the gearbox back out..
It has developed a leak, post LSD..
Speaking to Jamie, this can sometimes happen. I will not know what has caused it until the box is out.. But the top suspect is the imput shaft seal.
Just to make people aware, although this should be a straight swap out job, things can and do go wrong.
Cheers,
Rich.
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#146088 - 26/08/09 11:57 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Kaxe]
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Fiesta Maniac
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 6067
Loc: Shoreham-by-Sea, W. Sussex, UK
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Were you getting puddles on the pavement? Noises? What were the symptoms?
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24/03/05 to 27/06/12 & I loved it
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#146089 - 26/08/09 01:12 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: PinkRinse]
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Registered: 24/06/09
Posts: 186
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i take its the ATB from Quaife , just for terms sake , a ATB is difrent from the Usal LSD in one main way , it dont lock like most LSD's do
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Sarcasm helps keep you from telling people what you really think of them.
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#146092 - 26/08/09 05:10 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Kaxe]
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Fiesta Nutter
Registered: 15/01/06
Posts: 3556
Loc: Tipton nr. Dudley, W. Mids
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Quote:
PinkRinse quick question while we've got your attention on this thread please!?
The diff gives you more BHP right? because it pushes the power down to the wheels!? So in conclusion that should improve the BHP and give you a more accurate BHP number at the wheels on a rolling road surely!?
No BHP increase, the diff is after the gearbox which is after the engine.
You just get more traction.
You know if you pull of a bit too sharpish and the (normally) inside front whell spins?
Well with a torque Biasing diff it senses the loss of traction (by noting that the RH wheel is rotating slower than the LH wheel) and operates internal clutches that shift the torque to the other (slower wheel) and will keep shifting it back and forth or using both until both wheel speeds match.
Hope I haven't taught you to suck eggs.
_________________________
2011 Focus 3-door Zetec 1.6 TDCi. Previous <img src="/images/graemlins/stemo.gif" alt="" />s - 2006 Panther Black & 2007 Red. Gone and quite forgotten <img src="/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
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#146094 - 27/08/09 09:36 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Kaxe]
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Fiesta Maniac
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 6067
Loc: Shoreham-by-Sea, W. Sussex, UK
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Works perfectly with an NA car (like mine) it even works perfectly with an unmodded (power wise) car. Its all about better traction .. putting down the power thats there in a more efficient way (when its dry lol). Course if you have a mega super modded car then its a good idea to get one because you've gone that far in upping the power you might as well get better traction too!
_________________________
24/03/05 to 27/06/12 & I loved it
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#146095 - 27/08/09 01:57 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: PinkRinse]
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Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 8157
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Quote:
Works perfectly with an NA car (like mine) it even works perfectly with an unmodded (power wise) car. Its all about better traction .. putting down the power thats there in a more efficient way (when its dry lol). Course if you have a mega super modded car then its a good idea to get one because you've gone that far in upping the power you might as well get better traction too!
Great points! I will take one!
 
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#146096 - 01/09/09 08:16 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Kaxe]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Guys,
The diff does not work by sensing a loss of traction, the clue is in the name. It is a torque biasing diff, it senses the amount of torque being applied to the driving wheels and bias's this across the driving wheels.
In a true sense it is not a LSD, as if the inside wheel is lifted from the ground it will not be driven as the diff will not remain locked. Also the diff will only work on throttle. It will not lock on lift off. This makes it more driveable on the road.
The issue with my gearbox has been resolved.. It was the input shaft seal. This can get nicked when the gearbox is refitted.. heh ho.. so if you get a leak, now you know why.
As the car was in, i got a set of 200bhp Cosworth cams fitted at the same time. So hopefully i will get a couple more bhp now as well..
Cheers,
Rich.
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#146097 - 09/09/09 03:32 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Quick update from me.. Been talking with Dan from DRM.. Basically I have decided not to go down the supercharger route, I am going to go for throttle bodies.. There are a number of reasons for this but the top one is drivability. Dan has been doing alot of work with the SCT guys.. These are the guys from the US who built the advantage III software to flash the dreamscience boxes. I would say that Dan and Kevin at DRM have the most knowledge on this platform now, they are the only people who have to got to the bottom of how the manufacture's stratergies are implemented on the ford oem ecu. Basically as we all the know, the standard ecu, will keep trying to adjust fueling, ingnition, compensation tables and more.. This is causing alot of the high profile tuners, lots of issues.. DTC lights coming on, cars running lean/rich/rough/revs hanging and more.. So, onto the throttle bodies. These retain the standard fly by wire throttle, they idle nice and they make power.. With the cosworth cams and the throttle bodies I am expecting around 215bhp. Me and Dan are going to progress this kit upto around 235bhp - 240bhp on the standard motor with the addition of a CNC machined gas flowed head from ric wood. This is the max you are going to get safely on standard internals, I will be replacing rob bolts as well, so I can up the rev limit to 7750rpm. Next year, I am going to build a full on all steel engine with a 9500rpm rev limit. With a change of cams and increase in compression we should see 290bhp.. This will be plenty and will make a great trackday package, which is what i want to do. It will also be bomb proof and reliable. Wish me luck.. Rich.
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#146099 - 09/09/09 07:16 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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MountooningTipster
Registered: 26/08/07
Posts: 11640
Loc: here
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Quote:
Quick update from me..
I would say that Dan and Kevin at DRM have the most knowledge on this platform now, they are the only people who have to got to the bottom of how the manufacture's stratergies are implemented on the ford oem ecu.
Basically as we all the know, the standard ecu, will keep trying to adjust fueling, ingnition, compensation tables and more.. This is causing alot of the high profile tuners, lots of issues.. DTC lights coming on, cars running lean/rich/rough/revs hanging and more..
So, onto the throttle bodies. These retain the standard fly by wire throttle, they idle nice and they make power.. Rich.
Sounds like a good plan. This why I went Mountune, hear so many stories of cars tuned with remaps/DS etc and then along comes all the minor niggles as you say, engine lights/revs hanging on or off/rich lean running a favourite for sure, think this is because tuners can't get full access to ford's ECU of which as you say does a little bit of self populating.
Am sure there are plenty of well tuned cars some ok and others after much to-ing and fro-wing back to the tuners, for me I just want total reliability, I might not have big power but it works and works 100% and where I can use it.
Few on t'other forum experimenting with throttle bodies (Jenvey make one -youv'e probably read that thread).
This will an interesting build, looking forward to hearing progress on this.
_________________________
MR200 Stage 3 200PS Evans Halshaw Mountune Pro
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#146100 - 09/09/09 11:00 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: YellowBadge]
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Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 108
Loc: Wirral
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Came across this little article about mountune 185, just thought people might be interested unless everyone has already seen it? Drivers Republic Mountune 185 Review
_________________________
2007 Performance Blue/ Full Leather/ Bluetooth and ESP/ Parking Sensors/ Power Fold Mirrors/ Sunroof/ CC Washers/ CC Boot Lock/ Flat Wipers/ K&N57i
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#146103 - 15/09/09 08:55 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: ShottaZ]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Car is now in and having the throttle bodies fitted this week.
I will post up a graph and some pics when i get it back.
cheers,
rich.
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#146104 - 15/09/09 09:24 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 8157
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Quote:
Car is now in and having the throttle bodies fitted this week.
I will post up a graph and some pics when i get it back.
cheers,
rich.
Amazing  ...I was thinking that but I already have the cossie inlet manifold doh! lol!
Keep it up!
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#146106 - 18/09/09 09:49 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Alex_H]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Car should be ready Monday to collect. I will post up results and pics when i have them..
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#146107 - 22/09/09 03:20 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Car will be ready tommorow. I have heard it running on the phone, but not seen it yet.. Jesus.. I can't wait..
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#146109 - 22/09/09 09:17 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Alex_H]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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It was being checked over on the dyno.. Sounded really throaty and mean!! Hoping for about 215-220bhp. Going for 240-250 once we change the CNC head on and higher spec cams..
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#146111 - 23/09/09 06:54 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Alex_H]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Yeah, they do look cool.. But sound even cooler!!!
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#146112 - 23/09/09 07:42 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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This is the head I am going fit. Both Me and Dan are going for this head, we expect some good results witht he custom cams we are specing.. http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=9167Cheers, Rich.
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#146115 - 23/09/09 12:17 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Alex_H]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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I will get the graph tonight and will post this up. The other area we are going to work on is exhaust manifold design. Now everyone thinks the miltek 4-1 is the best manifold on the market and to date it appears to give the best gains. I believe that a 4-2-1 design is going to give much more torque across the whole rev range without sacrificing top end. We will see..
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#146116 - 24/09/09 07:20 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Drove the car last night, felt good, there area couple of drivability issues, which should be sorted on the dyno roday and tommorrow..
_________________________
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OMP Strut Brace
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AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
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#146118 - 24/09/09 09:03 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Alex_H]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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i will do some when i have 2 mins.. trust me.. just need the dyno print out first..
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
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Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
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AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
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#146119 - 24/09/09 09:39 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Site Supporter
Registered: 04/07/09
Posts: 250
Loc: RAF Coningsby
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#146121 - 24/09/09 07:48 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Spiers]
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Site Supporter
Registered: 20/10/08
Posts: 7389
Loc: Eaton Bray, Dunstable
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Quote:
Just had my boiler taken out and dreamed about putting NOS in it.
Dont think it will fit in my boot though.
Anyone been in a car with NOS, saw it on fifth gear on a Golf but i bet its sooo expensive.
that would be one hell of a nos tank!
_________________________
Red Escort 1.6LX Then - Red Escort 1.4 Then - Silver Fiesta ST 170BHP Then - White Fiesta ST MR200+ Now - Mitsubishi Evo IV Forged 2.3 500BHP and Mondeo Mk3 2.0TDCI 
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#146122 - 25/09/09 10:16 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Dan_The_Man]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Drove the car again, to give dan the data logs he needs to tweek the map. Areas of work are: Idle: Cams are causing some issues. Acceleration enrichment: dipping into and out of throttle needs some work. Will post up some results soon.. promise..
_________________________
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Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#146123 - 25/09/09 11:33 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 8157
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Quote:
Drove the car again, to give dan the data logs he needs to tweek the map.
Areas of work are:
Idle: Cams are causing some issues.
Acceleration enrichment: dipping into and out of throttle needs some work.
Will post up some results soon.. promise..
Yeah cams are always a problem. I drove for a month steadily (not going over 55mph) with my engine light on and now it's gone off and the car is running at its full potential!  ...it's a strange one but I guess the ECU had to get used to all the mods!
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#146125 - 02/10/09 05:37 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Drifter]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Heh guys,
Got the car back. It is much better, tip in throttle, rpm hanging and idle issues have been resolved 95%, and now the car is much more drivable at part throttle..
Head line is 205bhp at the fly.
There is a truck load more mapping to do. We are running 13 afr in most of the rpm range, apart from where we come on cam, it is a little lean here around 14.2 afr and this needs to be addressed as the ideal for power on the duratec is 13.8. Also peak power is coming in around 7000rpm.
This means we need to raise the rev limit. Rod bolts being ordered next week, to raise the rpm limit to 7750rpm.
All in all very happy with the initial results, doing what i expected which is nice, have a base point to work from.
I would say maybe another 10-15bhp to come at the max once the mapping is optimised. For the record, the car was run on the base fuel table, base ign table for Dan's car which is minus cams so, less than ideal..
cheers,
rich.
_________________________
Panther Black Fiesta
Milltek Exhaust
Milltek Manifold
Cosworth Cams
GGR Induction
OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
Full Poly Bush Kit
AP Racing 4 Pot Brake Kit
**DRM Throttle Bodies Next**
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#146126 - 06/10/09 08:26 AM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: evo6rss]
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Fiesta Fan
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 117
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Heh guys, Did about 4 hours more mapping last night. Full load fueling is now on the button, more work to do around part throttle and cruise. Ignition values have not been touched yet. The car is gonna be really good when its finished. Really lucky that DRM will allow me to map the car with them and i have free access to there dyno. This product is gonna rock when we have finished the development. I will post up the graph's when we are finished. Promise.. Just want to get it right first.. So you guys can see the potential. Cheers, Rich.
_________________________
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Cosworth Cams
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OMP Strut Brace
Bilstein B12 Suspension
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#146129 - 08/10/09 09:19 PM
Re: Tuning Package..
[Re: Alex_H]
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Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 106
Loc: West-Midlands
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Quote:
I will post up the graph's when we are finished. Promise.. Just want to get it right first.. So you guys can see the potential.
Any gains in torque?
What inspired you to go ITB's route just out of interest?
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